Some hope opposing the electric nightmare?
- Thread starter Scrappy
- Start date
smib
Legendary Knight
With what South West Water charge, I can barely afford to run a bath
Don the Don
Legendary Knight
I remember this incident very well,
https://www.gaia.com/article/the-mysterious-death-of-stanley-meyer-and-his-water-powered-car
MartytheMartian
Legendary Knight
Hmmm even reading the first few lines of that Wiki on Meyer's 'invention' you can tell it's snake oil. The idea that you can split something like water and then re-combine it via combustion and gain energy is, to put it simply, bollocks. The truth of, and problem with, all fuels is that you need at least, if not more, energy to create them than you get out of them. The beauty of fossil fuels is that all that energy was locked into them millions of years ago from the animals and plants that rotted down to form them forming an enormous store of essentially free energy. The only other sources of 'free' energy are the atom, wind, rain and sun and none of those are that easy to capture efficiently. If the globe didn't listen so keenly to all the Electric vehicles maniacs, we would be far better served figuring out ways to continue to use fossil fuels without the pollution. Invest in research into exhaust gas scrubber technologies, work out ways to re-cycle plastics better, that sort of thing. That of course would require the whole move to electrical vehicles being genuine and not a shrewd way of getting to sell an entirely new generation of vehicles while forcing the entire global vehicle 'fleet' off the road to make way for the new sales.
Scrappy
Legendary Knight
I don't think it bollocks at all, you can quite simply produce hydrogen from water using electrolysis requiring very little electricity. As hydrogen produces more power than petrol, you should need a third less hydrogen to produce the same power as you would get from petrol, and petrol engines can be made to run on hydrogen.
Have a look at the production rate of hydrogen in this simple demo, the bottle is filled pretty quickly and bare in mind that you should only need a third of the quantity compared to petrol. Then consider this is a very simple and crude experiment, and a professionally engineered production system, perhaps also using a superior electrolyte (like the supposed HH+), would be a lot more efficient.
Also a company in Spain is developing a very small light engine that could be powered by hydrogen combustion. Ignore the misnomer about the engine being a 1 stroke engine, the real advantage of this engine would be its claimed efficiency and lack of size/weight, giving a better power to weight ratio, and for bikes presumably only half the engine would be required (4 cylinders not 8) like for their proposed use in aeroplanes.
With governments banning the sales of ICE vehicles by 2030, they will stifle or kill the ability of technological advancement to solve the clean engine issue. Also I suspect they will be lobbied by oil and energy corporations to bury hydrogen powered ICE engines because there will be no money in it for them. I firmly believe that a truly free market (not restricted by oil companies), along with researched and development can produce clean ICE engines, which would be a far better solution that massively environmentally damaging EVs with their toxic batteries.
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Scrappy
Legendary Knight
Further to the above, this demonstrates just how simple it is to produce hydrogen... using a jar of water, 2 pencils, and a small 9 volt battery
This video shows how to convert a generator to run on water (hydrogen from electrolysis), and reading the comments it would appear that several people have produced these... I might give it a go if energy prices increase again this winter
This video shows how to convert a generator to run on water (hydrogen from electrolysis), and reading the comments it would appear that several people have produced these... I might give it a go if energy prices increase again this winter
MartytheMartian
Legendary Knight
Yes it's relatively easy to split water into Hydrogen and Oxygen, Christ it's a first year chemistry experiment with a satisfying 'Pop' to get the sprogs oohing and ahhing but you need to make it in much larger volumes, using energy and compress it to a liquid, using energy, in order to store it in a car in the amounts needed to feed the engine.
The claims of the Meyers engine specifically is that it's a 'perpetual motion' device whereby the energy used to creating the fuel is equal to the energy obtained from the fuel and there must also be zero loss to friction, gas escape, wasted heat etc. that, put simply is an impossibility as it breaks the laws of physics.
Another point is that, If you can get 'X' amount of energy out of combining two Hydrogen atoms and one Oxygen into H20 via combustion then it must have taken that much energy to split the two Hydrogen atoms from one Oxygen atom in the first place. The cheat with Solar, Wind, Water, Nuclear and Fossil fuels is that you don't have to create the energy as it's already there for the taking and you just have to try and minimise the losses during the use of those 'fuels'.
You simply don't get something for nothing and that is what we all, as a species, have to understand and what we need to do is figure out how best to work with what we do have and, when it comes to 'portable' energy then Fossil fuels are the only game in town. I fully believe that fossil fuels can be made 'clean' but it would need a willingness amongst car manufacturers, chemists, engineers and governments to really get to the best and cleanest way to do it but, and here is the big but that I believe the oil companies want to avoid, is that it would take a significant reduction in the cost of the fuels to make it financially viable to make good, clean burning vehicles and it's more profitable to sell the snake oil of electric cars.
The claims of the Meyers engine specifically is that it's a 'perpetual motion' device whereby the energy used to creating the fuel is equal to the energy obtained from the fuel and there must also be zero loss to friction, gas escape, wasted heat etc. that, put simply is an impossibility as it breaks the laws of physics.
Another point is that, If you can get 'X' amount of energy out of combining two Hydrogen atoms and one Oxygen into H20 via combustion then it must have taken that much energy to split the two Hydrogen atoms from one Oxygen atom in the first place. The cheat with Solar, Wind, Water, Nuclear and Fossil fuels is that you don't have to create the energy as it's already there for the taking and you just have to try and minimise the losses during the use of those 'fuels'.
You simply don't get something for nothing and that is what we all, as a species, have to understand and what we need to do is figure out how best to work with what we do have and, when it comes to 'portable' energy then Fossil fuels are the only game in town. I fully believe that fossil fuels can be made 'clean' but it would need a willingness amongst car manufacturers, chemists, engineers and governments to really get to the best and cleanest way to do it but, and here is the big but that I believe the oil companies want to avoid, is that it would take a significant reduction in the cost of the fuels to make it financially viable to make good, clean burning vehicles and it's more profitable to sell the snake oil of electric cars.
Scrappy
Legendary Knight
Both the bike and the generator in the videos are being powered by the hydrogen produced directly from the electrolysis with no storage whatsoever. In the other demonstration where they are simply generating the hydrogen in to a bottle, the bottle was nearly filled within about 2 seconds. Think how long a bike engine can run just on the petrol in the carb float bowls, the bottle in the demo probably has more capacity than a couple of carbs, and only a third of the volume of hydrogen should be required as its 3 times more powerful than petrol. So logically from what I've seen, and the actual Kawasaki running on hydrogen produced from simultaneous electrolysis from the bikes own 12v supply, then it looks like it would work very nicely... unless I'm being taken for a total mug.
Freck
Legendary Knight
I’ve long been of the opinion that hydrogen is a much better way forward than electric and was pleasantly surprised to see a hydrogen fuel station in Aberdeen when I was up there last week.
I’ve also recently read that more car manufacturers such as BMW are looking into the technology now.
I’ve also recently read that more car manufacturers such as BMW are looking into the technology now.
Scrappy
Legendary Knight
Potentially more good news for hydrogen, but also a brilliant example of how government policy and the green agenda get in the way...
www.telegraph.co.uk
Limitless ‘white’ hydrogen under our feet may soon shatter all energy assumptions
There’s a real possibility that vast reserves of this clean fuel can be extracted at competitive costs
MartytheMartian
Legendary Knight
I have no problem with the concept of hydrogen engines at all but I am dubious of the claims about the Hydrogen cracking side of things. In that video of the fellow with the bottles and the bike battery I suspect that it's not Potassium Hydroxide he puts in his electrolytic cells but Potassium Chloride, as a substitute as he states, for Sodium Chloride 'because it works better' and the result is that your bottles become filled with Potassium Hydroxide due to the electrolysis and you get not only a little Hydrogen gas but also highly toxic, as seen on the battlefields of WWI, Chlorine gas in an equal amount. Obviously you will need to constantly replenish your supply of Potassium, or Sodium Chloride and your water, not to mention disposing of the corrosive Potassium or Sodium Hydroxide and for every molecule of Potassium Hydroxide you create you get one atom of hydrogen and one atom of Chlorine because the Potassium has taken the other hydrogen and oxygen atom from each water molecule that is reacted whilst spitting out it's Chlorine atom.
This means you not only need to fill your tank with water but you will also need to buy Potassium Chloride, or salt from a manufacturer and you need to remember that Potassium Hydroxide and Sodium Hydroxide are both highly corrosive not to mention dangerous to shoomans and then you also have to deal with the toxic chlorine gas too.
HH+ hmmmm now that one is a puzzle, the only reference to such a thing I found in a search online led to the very same people who did the video above using HH+. Of course, being a white 'powder' it could simply be Sodium Chloride or Potassium Chloride which would produce the very same 'fizzing' and give out both Hydrogen and Chlorine gases.
I reckon that, although we'd all love to be able to run vehicles on nothing but tap water, sadly even with Hydrogen engines, which are perfectly viable and probably much better for the 'environment' than battery powered electric cars, we would still have to depend on 'Big Chemistry' and Hydrogen generation plants supplying re-fuelling stations where we would fill up with liquid hydrogen and we will still have to pay for our fuel.
Nothing in life is free, not even humans because everything needs energy to run whether we call it food or fuel and that energy has a cost whether in effort to locate resources or paying tokens to someone else who is producing it.
This means you not only need to fill your tank with water but you will also need to buy Potassium Chloride, or salt from a manufacturer and you need to remember that Potassium Hydroxide and Sodium Hydroxide are both highly corrosive not to mention dangerous to shoomans and then you also have to deal with the toxic chlorine gas too.
HH+ hmmmm now that one is a puzzle, the only reference to such a thing I found in a search online led to the very same people who did the video above using HH+. Of course, being a white 'powder' it could simply be Sodium Chloride or Potassium Chloride which would produce the very same 'fizzing' and give out both Hydrogen and Chlorine gases.
I reckon that, although we'd all love to be able to run vehicles on nothing but tap water, sadly even with Hydrogen engines, which are perfectly viable and probably much better for the 'environment' than battery powered electric cars, we would still have to depend on 'Big Chemistry' and Hydrogen generation plants supplying re-fuelling stations where we would fill up with liquid hydrogen and we will still have to pay for our fuel.
Nothing in life is free, not even humans because everything needs energy to run whether we call it food or fuel and that energy has a cost whether in effort to locate resources or paying tokens to someone else who is producing it.
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Don the Don
Legendary Knight
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Don the Don
Legendary Knight
Scrappy
Legendary Knight
They obviously generate a significant amount of heat when charging, judging by the sound of the fans which seem to be on constantly when my neighbours Tesla is parked outside his house
Don the Don
Legendary Knight
Look's like this was also caused by an EV battery catching fire and it's not the first inccident of this kind "yet" still they insist on peddling these things
www.bbc.com
Ameland rescue: Crew jump off ship ablaze with cargo of 3,000 cars
One person died as fire took hold of the ship as it burned off the Dutch island of Ameland.