War with China/Russia

chas

Legendary Knight
I think we'll see Ukraine very much more occupied temporarily but holding that position will be an entirely different matter. Enforcing No Fly Zones or direct outside military support won't be seen but it's basically in the West's interest to humiliate Putin over this invasion so I'm sure that internal resistance to the occupation will be well fed and watered.
Unfortunately the individual humanitarian suffering will be largely seen as collateral damage. Whether it's some poor bastard Russian conscript or a Ukrainian daughter or son that loses a father or mother.
 

MartytheMartian

Legendary Knight
I see Putin is now issuing veiled threats directly at the UK because of the sanctions. My inner 'aggro' nutcase read that and was hitting an imaginary nuclear strike button. I don't respond well to threats and I hope that a lot of people in the UK feel the same. I think that sooner or later we will have to lock horns with the little shit's troops and we better be ready to give it our all.
 

Sarky B’stard

Legendary Knight
Bullseye 😃

BBC News - War in Ukraine: Russian helicopter shot down by missile

I'm only guessing but that didn't look to be a guided missile? It reminded me of shooting just in front of a fast moving object. So that the shot has time to reach the area that the target will eventually occupy. Just as the target arrives.
If so, it was a very fancy bit of shooting 🙂
Oh they're all 'guided' but there are multiple methods with ground to ground and ground to air and air to ground varieties too. MANPADS tend to be infra red homing or laser riders whereas ATGM have developed from Manual Command Line of Sight (a joystick the operator flies onto target via a thin wire streaming out the back (which limits range!!)) via SemiAutomatic (manually keep the birdie on the target) to Automatic (which holds the target itself).

However, none of the above ATGM are fire and forget and engaging the operator with machine gun fire doesn't half spoil his aim if the launch signature is spotted. The newest ones, as supplied, are true fire and forget using a mix of guidance methods. Firstly you want a low signature, soft launch that betrays little without blowing the firer into the street. It happened more than once with the IRA firing RPGs from front rooms! You want them to arm early and clear any immediate obstructions in the flight path and, because tank armour is thickest at front and sides, to attack from above.

Now anti air missiles need to be fast throughout to catch/intercept their targets and MANPADS are point defence weapons I.e. something pretty much attacking you rather than part of a much wider, longer, higher range area defence system linked to radar etc.

Back to the video - what I see is the climbing launch of a modern ATGW with similar flight speeds for a much slower target. JAVELIN has a direct attack mode for anti helicopter use or bunker busting where it ploughs into the target rather than overflying and detonating overhead.
 

Scrappy

Legendary Knight
What is occurring is horrific, and I sincerely hope that a world without Putin is a better place. However I do have some nagging doubts. Ukraine until relatively recently was a Russian friendly state, but the West has been interfering and mixing it up there for decades, helping to destabilise the country and there was a couple of coups, which led to the introduction of a West and EU friendly government. This was after the west promised to previous Russian governments that they would not expand either the EU or NATO any further east, but they did anyway. So this begs the question why have they done so? :unsure:

 

Sarky B’stard

Legendary Knight
Before you get to government level machinations there was a basic drift Westwards in the popular mood..... EU, NATO democracy etc. Putin's position is simply "No you don't, you are in the Russian sphere of influence, always have been & I'm not having it."

They are irreconcilable positions. You can argue about the legitimacy of various things until the cows come home but Putin chose force over persuasion. That tends to stop the conversation for a while. Hopefully the liberal dreamers now understand that the World hasn't changed as their fantasy projected and we are better prepared for the next grab that will surely come. Two thirds of the World has autocratic leadership. Democracies virtually never go to war with one another. Still trying to frame Canada in that context. Autocratic but puny? That's Turdeauism.
 

MartytheMartian

Legendary Knight
As sarky says, while NATO did promise not to expand East and has broken that promise the fact is that these countries chose to join the West to free themselves from Russian dictatorship (who wouldn't) and wanted protection from Russia. This is all about Vlad feeling his dick is too small. Russia has become an irrelevance and, contrary to Vlad's claims, the West had pretty much forgotten about Russia as a 'World Power' because even as a 'Red Menace' China has replaced them. Vlad wants to re-claim the lost 'Glory' of USSR empire and the countries that have escaped his clutches don't want it. They want self determination and the freedoms that Europe offer. Whatever your perception the Western model is far free'er than the Russian, Chinese, moslem world and African models. Western democracy is far from brilliant but the alternatives are truly shite.
 

Scrappy

Legendary Knight
As sarky says, while NATO did promise not to expand East and has broken that promise the fact is that these countries chose to join the West to free themselves from Russian dictatorship (who wouldn't) and wanted protection from Russia. This is all about Vlad feeling his dick is too small. Russia has become an irrelevance and, contrary to Vlad's claims, the West had pretty much forgotten about Russia as a 'World Power' because even as a 'Red Menace' China has replaced them. Vlad wants to re-claim the lost 'Glory' of USSR empire and the countries that have escaped his clutches don't want it. They want self determination and the freedoms that Europe offer. Whatever your perception the Western model is far free'er than the Russian, Chinese, moslem world and African models. Western democracy is far from brilliant but the alternatives are truly shite.

I'm talking post USSR, after Ukraine was free of Russian dictatorship, the population of Ukraine was largely Russian friendly, after all going back a lot further in history, as I understand it they are largely the same people, the "Rus" in Russia coming from the Rus Vikings who settled in that area and had Kiev as their capital. In recent decades after the collapse of the USSR, Ukraine was subject to seduction and propaganda from the EU and the West, I believe the BBC for example may have had a hand to play in whipping up trouble in Ukraine, as they allegedly did in the Balkans and Syria. The west had obvious desires for Ukraine, but for what purpose, as the country served as a useful friendly buffer between east and west.

Don't get me wrong I'm not in anyway defending Putin, he is a corrupt dictatorial gangster, and he has invaded another sovereign nation, no doubt committing all kinds of atrocities, and he should be stopped and/or taken out.

You say that the Ukrainians want the same freedoms that Europe offers, many Europeans may argue that their supposed freedoms are disappearing at an alarming rate, and that perhaps they are not living in the "free" democracies that they are claimed to be, when they are ruled by unelected EU overlords in Brussels, and/or the WEF in Zurich. The election in the US some believe was highly suspect, so also perhaps not such a free democracy as it is claimed?

I just don't think it is wise to believe everything we are being told by governments and the media that have lied to us so many times in recent history, and acted like dictators themselves for the last two years, some like Trudeau, Ardern, Macron, and Morrison still doing so. And lets not forget Tony Blair who took the UK in to an illegal war, and suspicions that he had killed Dr David Kelly who tried to expose Blair's dodgy dossier, actions that might be described as being Putin like. Plus there is our invasions of not only Iraq, but Afghanistan, and the UK involvement in Libya, Syria, etc. Our own government has also been shown to be corrupt, with various scandals in recent times, e.g. expenses, cash for honors, lobbying, grooming gang cover ups, PPE contracts, CCP infiltration, etc.

I think my point is that all governments look highly suspicious at the moment, and this conflict has come at a convenient time for some western leaders, and seemingly has made the UK population totally forget the last two years of authoritarian control, expense, and propaganda dished out to them by their own government and media, who they are now suddenly believing like the gospel.

I admire the the Ukrainians for their bravery and resistance, and I abhor Putin and his actions, but can't help thinking they are being used to some degree :unsure:
 
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MartytheMartian

Legendary Knight
Well, yes we shouldn't have been in Iraq (I actually rather liked Saddam Hussein and would have let him have Kuwait), Afganistan, Libya and Syria and would have preferred that we had left them alone to make their own futures. Ukraine on the other hand seem to be largely opposed to being part of a new USSR or the poor buggers wouldn't be fighting tooth and nail and would have welcomed Putin with open arms and, having known a few folks in Russia over the years I wouldn't trade my 'lack of freedom' for theirs ever. Russia, outside of the areas where the wealthy live is like a third world country. Of course now if you don't tow the party line it's off to the Gulag with you. I question the idea that Europe 'tempted', 'bribed' or otherwise coerced Ukrainians to 'come in from the cold' they only had to look at what we had to want it. I know some people in Ukraine who were, until this invasion, running very successful scale model kit companies whose sales were in large part to European countries and probably mainly to Britain. Older guys who well remember being under Soviet control and have told me in no uncertain terms that they do not want to go back to being controlled by them despite all the Russian claims on 'brotherhood'. Of course we must not forget that Ukraine is one of the most resource rich countries in Europe which is the real reason Putin wants it. On the subject of the Soviet 'brotherhood' as well it's worthwhile to read about what Russia did to Ukraine in an attempt to stop the Nazi's getting their hands on it's resources and the Holodomor which saw it made illegal for Ukrainians to own food and the starvations of millions (an estimated ten million or so Ukrainians) under comrade Stalin.

It's all too easy in the comfortable West to claim we are being held in the thrall of tyrants and 'controlled' when most of us don't know what really being controlled is. Personally I can't say I'm feeling as if I'm in anything even close to a Fascist state. Yes there are some things I'd like to see changed and suspect that Covid was a pisstake but I don't think that Boris Johnson is Darth Vader or Hitler and we are, for the most enjoying more freedom than most here in Europe and the US.
 
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Old Nick

Legendary Knight
Well, yes we shouldn't have been in Iraq (I actually rather liked Saddam Hussein and would have let him have Kuwait), Afganistan, Libya and Syria and would have preferred that we had left them alone to make their own futures. Ukraine on the other hand seem to be largely opposed to being part of a new USSR or the poor buggers wouldn't be fighting tooth and nail and would have welcomed Putin with open arms and, having known a few folks in Russia over the years I wouldn't trade my 'lack of freedom' for theirs ever. Russia, outside of the areas where the wealthy live is like a third world country. Of course now if you don't tow the party line it's off to the Gulag with you. I question the idea that Europe 'tempted', 'bribed' or otherwise coerced Ukrainians to 'come in from the cold' they only had to look at what we had to want it. I know some people in Ukraine who were, until this invasion, running very successful scale model kit companies whose sales were in large part to European countries and probably mainly to Britain. Older guys who well remember being under Soviet control and have told me in no uncertain terms that they do not want to go back to being controlled by them despite all the Russian claims on 'brotherhood'. Of course we must not forget that Ukraine is one of the most resource rich countries in Europe which is the real reason Putin wants it. On the subject of the Soviet 'brotherhood' as well it's worthwhile to read about what Russia did to Ukraine in an attempt to stop the Nazi's getting their hands on it's resources and the Holodomor which saw it made illegal for Ukrainians to own food and the starvations of millions (an estimated ten million or so Ukrainians) under comrade Stalin.

It's all too easy in the comfortable West to claim we are being held in the thrall of tyrants and 'controlled' when most of us don't know what really being controlled is. Personally I can't say I'm feeling as if I'm in anything even close to a Fascist state. Yes there are some things I'd like to see changed and suspect that Covid was a pisstake but I don't think that Boris Johnson is Darth Vader or Hitler and we are, for the most enjoying more freedom than most here in Europe and the US.
I think the point about relative freedoms between the West and Russia is a very important one not to be dismissed, Boris may be an incompetent clown who should be replaced BUT here I can say that without a second thought. Russians cannot make that type of comment about Putin without forever after looking over their shoulder!

Our Democratic system isn’t perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but it’s the least broken system that makes sure the majority of people are free and comfortable
 

Capt. Drunkey

King Of The Schnitzelwiesels
I think my point is that all governments look highly suspicious at the moment, and this conflict has come at a convenient time for some western leaders, and seemingly has made the UK population totally forget the last two years of authoritarian control, expense, and propaganda dished out to them by their own government and media, who they are now suddenly believing like the gospel.
I totally agree with you, mate… I remember the days before 1989, when Honecker and his cronies had their parades in the GDR. I always said: How could anyone even slightly intelligent, fall for such blatant, simple and stupid propaganda?

While over here, in the BRD they did everything right; and not any different from your poor folks over there, north of the channel:
The most perfect fascist system, is the one that makes everyone believe, that they actually have a choice.
Just look back at the last two years in our western ‘democracies‘... They cut into almost every kind of freedom and citizen-right that you can come up with but all those dumb shit-asses still believed that they dwell happily in a land of freedom and democracy… (🤮)

Now, Putin is as much a shithead, as Trump is in my personal view. I’d rather drink a beer with any Mafia boss. The latter at least has a code of honor.
BUT: If I watch our self righteous governments point at Putin and use him to wash their hands in innocence, I can only throw up bucketloads.

I do hate any kind of violence being inflicted on a neighboring independent country. And it makes me want to scream if I start thinking about all the innocent lives (and this includes the Russian soldiers as well) that have been wasted in the last few days and will be wasted in the days to come.

But whenever I turn on the news and see these narcissistic assholes in Berlin patting each others shoulders in mock-outrage, I just want to switch channels… 🤢
 

MartytheMartian

Legendary Knight
I see Putin is now offering two 'humanitarian corridors' for refugees. Of course if they want to take these 'corridors' they lead into captivity in Belarus or Russia!

Of course the longer and more bloody the conflict with Ukraine the better it is for the West as anti-Russian propaganda for the future. Sadly one might suspect that We will not seek to help the Ukrainians too much as we want Putin to blacken Russia's copybook for all time and, if he does a Hitler concentration camp job on Ukraine that will suit some in the west right down to the ground. Funny that Putin can't see just how bad all this looks for Mother Russia and how the histories will be written to say that he was on a par with Hitler and Stalin and brought Russia to an all-time low.

Andrew, at the end of the piece above points out the very selfishness that the West has when he tells Putin to get on with it because his gas is too expensive. So many people care more about how it affects their cost of living than they do about the injustice of it all.
 

DD67

The Peace Keeper
Staff member
What a boring fucker he is. I stuck 30 seconds of that.
He definitely has a boring voice. But I wonder if it isn't his real voice Mick?
Is it an act, kinda like his signature on YouTube?
Who else dresses in a suit & stands in front of a red velvet curtain to make every YouTube video?
 
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